Repro site might be selling games in our covers.

[PDDestro]

Then why do his prices vary from other repro sellers?

Plus the BS reasoning in his FAQ page:

Q: Is This Legal?
A: Creating these cart's that were never released into the US market, are Legal.

The US & Japan are both signatories to the Berne Convention so that answer doesn't cut the mustard.  Also, the argument that you're paying for the materials and work doesn't absolve or somehow cleanse the act. I could charge people for copying retail CDs, supplying blank CDs (material), and then burning them a copy (work) like the bootleggers I've seen in make shift stands @ flea markets and use the same excuse he does. The simple fact is it's for profit, i.e. bootlegging. I'm sorry but it didn't smell right from the get go, and this selling custom covers w/o even asking puts the whole operation over the top. As I stated before, I hope it gets shut down.

[Doom]

look up info on repros and you'll find that many games are in fact much more difficult and more expensive to make than ohers. some use more ROM chips than others, some use special chips, etc. Making these isn't as easy as you might think.

his prices are pretty standard for the service, actually

SNES carts need different chips for how big the games are - Final Fantasy "III" was more expensive than other SNES games because it was large.

AQ is right.

[AppleQueso]

Then why do his prices vary from other repro sellers?

Your posts imply you don't have any clue what repros even are, and now you're comparing his pricing to other repro sellers? Pricing varies wildly, yeah, because you're charging for labor (which is reasonable to do, considering this stuff takes a lot of time and isn't easy at ALL), which generally isn't something you can quantify, along with covering the initial startup costs (the cost of an EEPROM writer, for example). Add in the bandwidth costs from the fact that he's selling from his own website and you'll find his prices aren't quite as "scummy" as you'd think.

Is it bootlegging? Well yeah, I thought it was obvious. There's demand for this kind of service because he's providing a way to play these games (which are all either unreleased titles, rom hacks, or translated versions of games that never came to the US) on your actual hardware, something which isn't possible normally. Considering none of the games he's selling are possible to get in physical form anyhow, it'd likely fall into a legal gray area.

[PDDestro]

Then why do his prices vary from other repro sellers?

Considering none of the games he's selling are possible to get in physical form anyhow, it'd likely fall into a legal gray area.

Now who's being clueless? You keep wanting to dance around the issue, but there is no legal gray area there AT ALL. None of what he's doing falls under fair use, and it absolutely does NOT matter that these hacked or translated roms are not found in cart form beforehand. His 'work' does not make it gray, in fact because he charges for said 'work' he is clearly making things worse for himself w/ the real possibility of criminal charges as defined in Chapter 5, Section 6 of the Copyright Law of the U.S.

§ 506. Criminal offenses

(a) Criminal Infringement. —

(1) In general. — Any person who willfully infringes a copyright shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, if the infringement was committed —

(A) for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain;


Also, I hope he realizes he could get slapped with trafficking in counterfeit goods or services:

18 U.S.C. § 2320

§ 2320. Trafficking in counterfeit goods or services

    (a) Whoever intentionally traffics or attempts to traffic in goods or services and knowingly uses a counterfeit mark on or in connection with such goods or services shall, if an individual, be fined not more than $2,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both, and, if a person other than an individual, be fined not more than $5,000,000. In the case of an offense by a person under this section that occurs after that person is convicted of another offense under this section, the person convicted, if an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $15,000,000.


Also, do you realize just how easy it is to report all of this activity to the authorities and copyright holders?

And if you think small time crooks don't get caught just read the latest press releases and realize the frequency with which charges are brought all the time. And, if you are paying for any of this stuff realize that if he's caught your payment information may be acquired by the authorities. Do you really want to get mixed up in all that?

Ultimately, he's a bootlegger as you said yourself, that makes him ipso facto a scumbag in my book.

[AppleQueso]

So are the folks who have made custom cart labels and box arts designed to be used for repros such as these "scumbags" by association? What about folks such as Shenske, who's expressed interest in having a reproduction cart made of Star Fox 2. Is he a scumbag as well for facilitating these people?

Yeah, it's illegal, so is what we do on this site. I don't see you threatening to report us though.

[PDDestro]

So are the folks who have made custom cart labels and box arts designed to be used for repros such as these "scumbags" by association? What about folks such as Shenske, who's expressed interest in having a reproduction cart made of Star Fox 2. Is he a scumbag as well for facilitating these people?

Yeah, it's illegal, so is what we do on this site. I don't see you threatening to report us though.

Again, dancing around the issue. Bootlegging = for profit. Do you not understand the moral, let alone legal, difference between the two? I'm starting to think you have some sort of connection to this website with how you so vigorously defended it from the get go.

[AppleQueso]

I'm not so much defending that site as I am defending reproduction cart makers all around. I actually think that somebody putting effort in so that I can play, say, Secret of Mana 2 in english on my actual SNES is really cool. I take a bit of offense to the "scumbag" remark, because I've considered having a reproduction cart made (though probably not from this guy). I feel like you're calling me as well as the folks who made these labels to begin with a scumbag by association.

I also think threatening legal action (that could land the guy in prison) because he didn't give explicit credit to us for using labels (created with copyrighted images) that he likely didn't even know came from us to begin with is a bit extreme. Has anybody even bothered to email this guy? I'm sure he'd oblige with giving credit or even simply using a different default cover/label. Wanting to destroy someone's livelihood over something so petty, however, is something I do have moral issues with, sorry.

(besides if we threatened to report him, there's little stopping him from reporting us right back)

And hey, if I did have something to do with that site, why the hell would I steal cover art from here? Don't you think I'd likely make my own or at least ask permission? I'm honestly pretty annoyed that I'm being accused of being part of this.

[BadChad]

Before we go as far to say "he's a scumbag who's ripping people off with his scam site" did any think maybe it was someone from here who gave them to him. Ive been talking to him about this yesterday and today.

When I asked him about it he said that he had gotten them from from someone els who was claiming them as their own. I started with proving that the MM&B cover was infact mine and also provided links to the rest of the covers by the other artists. He told me he would email the guy who sent them to him about it.

Heres what I got today:

Gamereproducions:
-did he send you a message on there??

Me:
-I dont think so? I dont even know who "he" is lol.

Gamereproductions:
-protoman81, says he sent you a pm on there

Me:
-He might of at some point asked to use it for himself before, I dont
remember. But I sure dont remember him telling me he was going to be
sending them off to other people as his own. Is he the one who sent
you the rest of the covers too?

Gamereproductions:
- yeah. He claims they are his and people found them on his photobucket
account and put them on there claiming as their own  

Me:
-Thanks for letting me know! Im sure the others will be happy to know about
this aswell. Theres a bit of conflict going on about the issue right now so I hope
you dont mind Ill be clearing the air over at the forums.

So AQ was right when he said "that artwork was likely provided to him by a third party". One of those covers was mine and I was a little upset but I wasnt going to trash talk his site and the services he provides. I bought my first 4 NES repro carts from him a few years ago and I was very pleased with what I got and the price seemed pretty reasonable to me.

[AppleQueso]

Exactly what I thought was going on.

Still think he's a scumbag Von Doom? eh you probably do.

[PDDestro]

OK, it seems you are misunderstanding me at a fundamental level. Ultimately, bootlegging morally enrages me because it is not only taking another's work without permission, but on top of that profiting off of it! Not just for personal use, but commercial profit! I.E. making a living or at least some sort of additional income off of the works of others w/o permission or payment. Yes, what he does takes labor, but nowhere even close to the labor the game creators, fan translator/hackers, and the like engage in to make what we all here love (games). And in the process they do not see a dime of his profit for their hard earned work! If you can't see why it is wrong to make a profit of another's works than I can't help you. All his labor is zilch without the games, hacks, and translations. And on the issue of fan hacks and translation those people go years working for free to make something for fans to enjoy and this guy is making money off of it!  

I do agree that it's really cool to have your own repro cart. But not if it means enabling a bootlegger. That's where I draw the line. The law is clear and either he is very ignorant of it, which doesn't hold up in court, or he's misleading his customers to make a profit. In which case he deserves what he gets.

As for the issue of reporting him in conjunction with taking covers from here, well that isn't correct. As, I've known about that site for a good while now. So, it's not as much that he's taking covers but that he's burning off roms and selling them to begin with. The covers issue is just the cherry on top of it all! One shouldn't make their livelihood on dishonest work.

As for being accused, I only wondered aloud because of how vigorous you've been in this back and forth argument. Especially when it's concerning something that, to me, seems so simple, morally speaking. Usually when a simple moral premise is avoided, ignored, or berated there is an ulterior motive behind it.

You don't think it's a big deal, but clearly by the laws, financial penalties, and criminal repercussions involved it is a very big deal.

[AppleQueso]

That's the thing, I don't see him, or other reproduction cart makers, as profiting off of the work of others, I see them as providing a service. Obviously he and others who do this sort of thing feel the same way,  none of them are trying to profit off of the work that went into making these roms to begin with.

Do you feel that all reproduction cart makers are just scummy bootleggers?

[Doom]

Thinking in black and white is easy. "No tolerance" policies in the USA help authority figures make decisions easily.

The world isn't black and white. Copyright law can be good - even people who illegally download anything they can find should know this.

As most people on the Internet think, copyright law can also be bad. The only reason early Disney cartoons are not in public domain now is because of extensive lobbying from Disney and others. The world is full of victimless crimes.

Who is harmed by downloading Super Mario Galaxy 2? Some pirates might say "nobody! I was never going to buy it, therefore my downloading it has no negative effect!"

That could be true, depending on the game. People like to have full collections of things, so they might download a collection of every SNES game ever. It is very illegal to do so. If you asked that person if they ever planned on playing "Cybernator", chances are good they'll say "what's Cybernator?"

On the other hand, they also just downloaded Chrono Trigger, Super Metroid, and Super Mario World. All three of those games are very good, and you can purchase new versions of them in some way or another. Is it morally acceptable to take what you could pay for?

Pirates use the "never going to buy it" excuse a lot - sometimes they are being truthful, other times lying to themselves. It's true that I was "never going to buy" Cybernator. It isn't true that I was never going to buy SMG2. I bought SMG2, but not before pirating it 3 days before its release.

Think very hard about who is harmed through your actions. Be certain the answer really is 'nobody'.

[AppleQueso]

I'm not sure how exactly your post relates to reproduction carts, Doom.

[Doom]

Reproduction carts are against the law, but maybe since nobody is hurt by it, it doesn't matter.

Copyright infringement is against the law, even if it's with a 17 year old SNES game or 3 month old Wii game.

[AppleQueso]

mm

To sort of steer this back to its original topic, this Protoman81 person is who we should be talking to and pointing fingers at, not this gamereproductions guy. He seems to have suspiciously deleted his account here, though I don't know when. His posts are still on the site though:

http://www.thecoverproject.net/forums/index.php?topic=3494.msg34262#msg34262

Here he's asking badchad to upload the megaman and bass cover specifically. To turn around and then claim they were stolen from him is pretty low I'd say.