General Category > General Discussion
Gun control and such.
wiggy:
--- Quote from: KalessinDB on February 07, 2016, 07:14:18 PM ---#popcorn
HOW long can we go before the pro gun guy and the anti gun guy realize they're speaking completely different languages and will literally NEVER understand each other's viewpoint no matter what?
I've played this game with lots of pro gun guys at work (I'm quite anto gun). We can respect each other, but we absolutely cannot understand each other. It's not worth the breath/keystrokes.
--- End quote ---
The thing is, I do indeed understand their viewpoint. The problem is that virtually ALL of the data regarding home defense points to "having a gun in the house is more of a liability than a security".
The people who support owning handguns and the right to shoot an intruder never seem to produce any evidence to the contrary, other than the anecdotal "if the owner had a gun..." type of thing. Speculation doesn't prove anything. Also denouncing the empirical data, such as "so and so also said blah blah blah, which totally discredits his/her research/data".
TDI, you're assuming I/anyone else is "afraid of guns". I never said I was afraid, I only pointed to data that supports my assertion that owning a gun is more of a liability than a security measure. The data shows that having a gun in the house is more times than not, a liability, trained or not. This is what I was talking about above. Where's the data that shows "trained" gun owners are safer at home with their guns? That's an assumption, and a rather large one at that.
Not sure how the mindset is relevant? You obviously don't agree with it, but it does nothing to disprove actual data. of course someone who is against the current gun laws is going to have a mindset that is people shouldn't own hand guns or assault rifles or sub machine guns and so on. The fact that he has expressed his opinion doesn't invalidate the data.
I don't have any problems with people feeling that they need some sort of firearm to feel secure. I'm just looking at data and, regardless of how any of us feel, it speaks truth. If someone wants to point to research which says firearms in homes have proven to protect the people who live there, then I'll read it. I'm just not seeing it, and it's tiresome hearing the same emotional defenses and anecdotal evidence from gun owners. I could supply a glut of personal, anecdotal evidence showing that gun ownership is not necessarily a good idea for the average citizen, but I won't, because it's not all that relevant in the grand scheme of things.
More of my friends are gun owners than aren't, as an FYI. Just because I have a different opinion, doesn't mean I write someone off. So don't think that I'm going to dislike or yeah talk you for having a different opinion in this matter. Ask Palmer, we get along just fine :)
TDIRunner:
--- Quote ---TDI, you're assuming I/anyone else is "afraid of guns".
--- End quote ---
???
***EDIT*** I think you just need to double check whose comments you are responding to. ;)
FritzWhite:
--- Quote from: wiggy on February 08, 2016, 04:08:17 PM ---
--- Quote from: KalessinDB on February 07, 2016, 07:14:18 PM ---#popcorn
HOW long can we go before the pro gun guy and the anti gun guy realize they're speaking completely different languages and will literally NEVER understand each other's viewpoint no matter what?
I've played this game with lots of pro gun guys at work (I'm quite anto gun). We can respect each other, but we absolutely cannot understand each other. It's not worth the breath/keystrokes.
--- End quote ---
The thing is, I do indeed understand their viewpoint. The problem is that virtually ALL of the data regarding home defense points to "having a gun in the house is more of a liability than a security".
The people who support owning handguns and the right to shoot an intruder never seem to produce any evidence to the contrary, other than the anecdotal "if the owner had a gun..." type of thing. Speculation doesn't prove anything. Also denouncing the empirical data, such as "so and so also said blah blah blah, which totally discredits his/her research/data".
TDI, you're assuming I/anyone else is "afraid of guns". I never said I was afraid, I only pointed to data that supports my assertion that owning a gun is more of a liability than a security measure. The data shows that having a gun in the house is more times than not, a liability, trained or not. This is what I was talking about above. Where's the data that shows "trained" gun owners are safer at home with their guns? That's an assumption, and a rather large one at that.
Not sure how the mindset is relevant? You obviously don't agree with it, but it does nothing to disprove actual data. of course someone who is against the current gun laws is going to have a mindset that is people shouldn't own hand guns or assault rifles or sub machine guns and so on. The fact that he has expressed his opinion doesn't invalidate the data.
I don't have any problems with people feeling that they need some sort of firearm to feel secure. I'm just looking at data and, regardless of how any of us feel, it speaks truth. If someone wants to point to research which says firearms in homes have proven to protect the people who live there, then I'll read it. I'm just not seeing it, and it's tiresome hearing the same emotional defenses and anecdotal evidence from gun owners. I could supply a glut of personal, anecdotal evidence showing that gun ownership is not necessarily a good idea for the average citizen, but I won't, because it's not all that relevant in the grand scheme of things.
More of my friends are gun owners than aren't, as an FYI. Just because I have a different opinion, doesn't mean I write someone off. So don't think that I'm going to dislike or yeah talk you for having a different opinion in this matter. Ask Palmer, we get along just fine :)
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry if I was a bit brash in my response earlier; it's a subject that's important to me because it enables me to defend my family. I think you meant to respond to me and might have been confused on who posted what. I made the comment earlier about people's irrational fear of guns.
As for the data, it's hard to take it seriously with a statement like, "If you have a gun, everybody in your home is more likely than your non-gun-owning neighbors and their families to die in a gun-related accident, suicide or homicide." This is like saying that stepping outside increases your odds of skin cancer or people who drive are more likely to in accidents, but there's a KEY difference. I have more control over an accident with a firearm than I do with the previous two examples.
It is physically impossible for my firearm to go off unless the trigger is pulled. Biased statistics are meaningless in the face of this one FACT. I am in control of the ultimate safety and it's the one between my ears. I, and only I, decide when it's used because it CANNOT fire unless I use it, and I know how to use it.
I don't need to list examples of firearms saving lives because there are too many. It's a tool just like a car and used properly it can take you out of a bad situation unharmed.
PS. I don't harbor any resentment or begrudge someone if they disagree. I was kind of rude earlier and apologize. I'm ok with discussion.
wiggy:
--- Quote from: TDIRunner on February 08, 2016, 04:20:50 PM ---
--- Quote ---TDI, you're assuming I/anyone else is "afraid of guns".
--- End quote ---
???
***EDIT*** I think you just need to double check whose comments you are responding to. ;)
--- End quote ---
Ugh, I'm sorry.
palmer6strings:
--- Quote from: wiggy on February 08, 2016, 04:08:17 PM ---
More of my friends are gun owners than aren't, as an FYI. Just because I have a different opinion, doesn't mean I write someone off. So don't think that I'm going to dislike or yeah talk you for having a different opinion in this matter. Ask Palmer, we get along just fine :)
--- End quote ---
Hell ya, even though we are polar opposites on the issue at hand, I still love ya bro.