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| GAME FOR ADVANCE? |
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| UncleBob:
--- Quote from: wiggy on April 02, 2012, 06:40:31 AM ---Seems like you've already solved this problem. As you've already discovered, it is NOT a federal offense to ship these items via carries such as UPS/FedEx, and that's what paypal/ebay may tell the buyer to do. --- End quote --- That is a possibility. (Though there may be some issue had with transporting counterfeit materials across state lines). If this is the case, then demand that the buyer pay the shipping costs - up front. --- Quote ---Ease up on the whole "it's federal law" bit. We're not talking about shipping hundreds of bootlegs to a retailer. Nobody cares about a single bootleg GBA game being shipped. There isn't a federal prosecutor or judge that would even look at a case this small. When it comes to the law, there is no "That's not how the world works". It's just not that black and white. --- End quote --- Except that it is black and white. Now, if you're talking about if one would get caught or if one would get prosecuted - of course, that's a different story. But the law itself is black and white. That's why we have the great justice system we do. Laws (generally) are clear, but prosecutors, judges and juries are there to determine intent and decide if punishment is necessary. My point, however, is valid and would hold up in any court of law - Anyone (company or otherwise) that tries to make breaking the law a condition of an agreement is making an illegal agreement. Period. --- Quote ---1st off, you cannot de-authorize your PP account without actually talking to paypal. Again, you've signed an agreement with them. It's very unlikely that your bank or CC company will block transactions from a specific vendor. --- End quote --- Which is why I've said that. MULTIPLE TIMES. The call is simply to lay foundation. --- Quote ---They will instruct you to close your account and open a new one if it's a big concern. Even then, PP will pursue you for the money. They are relentless fucks, even with an amount as pithy as 15 bucks. --- End quote --- Let them. If you're determined enough, you can then bring them to court yourself. Especially if they attempt to attach anything to your credit record. Want some free money? PayPal has some pretty deep pockets. --- Quote ---The "big difference" is that any transfers which may take place regarding this transaction aren't going to be considered "future transactions", since the transaction itself has already taken place. --- End quote --- The transaction involving someone selling you counterfeit goods. Which is something you 100% have the right to dispute and will win virtually every time. --- Quote ---"See how quickly they back off" and totally deny your claim is more like it. --- End quote --- ... still waiting to hear your stories involving being duped into buying counterfeit goods. Because I've never had this happen. --- Quote ---Congrats to you on winning 3 fraud dispute chargebacks. That's not the norm when it comes to such things, but rather the exception. Keep in mind that both Mastercard and Visa have recently re-written their fraud chargeback policies. Filing 2 or more in a given time frame puts you under the microscope. Just something to keep in mind. --- End quote --- ...and still waiting. :D --- Quote ---I'm not trying to completely discredit your methods, Bob. I just feel the buyer should be aware that such aggressive tactics aren't necessarily the best route for everyone to take. --- End quote --- Aggressive tactics are the only method that will yield results. These resellers *know* no one will follow up on them... and that's how they get by with it. --- Quote ---You obviously have VERY strong feelings about bootleg games, and that obviously affects your choices regarding the resolution of a situations like these (as evidenced by you insistence on either destroying or reporting the items in question and your assertion that the chargebacks "aren't for the money".) --- End quote --- Yes... Bootleg resellers are, as far as I'm concerned, the scum of the hobby. Now, I give a little leeway to those selling reproductions of games you can't buy (like, say, English Mother for the NES). While I won't do business with someone like that, at least they're honest about what they're selling and they're providing a service to fans who can't get what they're looking for any other way. But for bootleggers of common DS and GBA titles? Screw these folks. They're not trying to help anyone but themselves. They're doing it in a dishonest fashion with the singular intent of ripping off everyone in the process. As for destroying the merchandise, I do that for myself. The goal isn't to get "free stuff" - and if you get your money back *and* keep the merchandise, then you're cheating the system in a big way. Destroy the merchandise and you gain nothing from the entire transaction. |
| wiggy:
--- Quote from: UncleBob on April 02, 2012, 09:15:10 AM --- --- Quote from: wiggy on April 02, 2012, 08:56:00 AM ---The same can be said for your repeated proclamations regarding the illegality of shipping counterfeit items via USPS. Call the FBI regarding this transaction and see where it gets you. --- End quote --- These two go together really well. Because you're attempting to make the product unusable so that you can ship it through the mail. Without the drill hole, it's an illegal bootleg. With the drill hole, it's a non-working replica. A homemade trinket. --- End quote --- But it's still fraud. Committing a crime in order to thwart another doesn't make it less of a crime. Plus, as you've already pointed out yourself (and as I've highlighted earlier), there are legal means by which to return it. --- Quote from: UncleBob on April 02, 2012, 09:15:10 AM --- --- Quote from: wiggy on April 02, 2012, 08:56:00 AM ---My point wasn't that it's something that should be reported, but rather that your instructions were rather hypocritical. --- End quote --- Not sure how you get that - my instructions have been constant - do what it takes to hurt the seller. --- End quote --- Come on, man, you're a smart guy. You insist that it's sooooo illegal to send a counterfeit item through the mail, then suggest the buyer himself commit fraud. One DOES NOT negate the other. That spells hyp-o-crite. Plus you're talking about taking revenge for what you feel is some heinous crime. That's not an appropriate way to approach the situation, ever. That makes you no better than the guy who knowingly sold counterfeit items in the first place. |
| wiggy:
Except that it is black and white...Laws (generally) are clear, but prosecutors, judges and juries are there to determine intent and decide if punishment is necessary. How many times have you been involved in civil and/or criminal litigation? I'm guessing not much aside from small claims, if that. Sorry, friend, law is absolutely NOT black and white. It is up to interpretation, and that interpretation will vary greatly from officer to officer, prosecutor to prosecutor, judge to judge, etc. Let them. If you're determined enough, you can then bring them to court yourself. Especially if they attempt to attach anything to your credit record. Want some free money? PayPal has some pretty deep pockets. "Free money"?! You have definitely never been a party to civil litigation. Free is not a word that is USED in that context. Ever. Of course you can try to sue anyone you like. My point is that you would have no grounds on which to do so. The transaction involving someone selling you counterfeit goods. Which is something you 100% have the right to dispute and will win virtually every time. Again, the transaction (as far as either your bank or CC are concerned) is with paypal, not the kid in FL. Your bank/CC will not be in contact with the guy in FL, they'll be in contact with PP. This is part of why PP is such a pain in the ass. They are a 3rd party in every transaction that they process and it just serves to complicate disputes. ...and still waiting. Cheesy This was empirical data, not a story. Would you like me to post the MC/Visa chargeback agreement? Stories are fun, but they only give an example of a single person's (limited) experience with any given topic. That's like relying on the data from a study that only used one person to study. You need a cross-section of MANY in order to provide truly useful data. Aggressive tactics are the only method that will yield results. These resellers *know* no one will follow up on them... and that's how they get by with it. In your experience. That has not been my experience 100% of the time, by any stretch of the imagination. Have I ever needed to be aggressive in order to get what I feel I was owed? Yes. Do I start off from that position every time. No fucking way. Sometimes that sort of attitude will get you the middle finger and a door slammed in your face. Yes... Bootleg resellers are, as far as I'm concerned, the scum of the hobby. I'm not a person fan of theirs either. But, they are human beings. Treating them the same way (or worse) than they treated you just makes you as much of a scum bag in my opinion. Now, I give a little leeway to those selling reproductions of games you can't buy (like, say, English Mother for the NES). Why? One is hardly different from the other according to your black and white way of thinking. This is actually an excellent example of how laws are NOT black and white. Your forgiveness in this instance is fairly consistent with the laws regarding this sort of thing. Why do you think there are so many sites selling repros and nearly none selling straight up bootlegs? This is because there is a LOT of gray area. In fact there's even a term for this sort of product, "gray market". |
| sheep2001:
all this fuss over someone selling an OBVIOUS fake. He hasn't made it, its a dodgy Chinese "GAME FOR ADVANCE!" - I'm tempted to order one for comedy value. Anyone with eyes can see in the picture that it's fake - he's not selling a faked new/sealed super rare fake item - it's Mario Kart. He's not trying to mislead, dupe, or rip anyone off. Everytone has opinions over this, but it's all getting a little heated over not very much (and by heated i mean boring). Can we all take a deep breath and relax a little? ;D |
| sadikyo:
I'm actually enjoying the discussion and don't find it boring :) As long as these two can keep it civil, I'd like to hear what they have to say. After looking at the ebay seller though, it doesn't APPEAR that he is one of the really bad scumbags. It is definitely possible that he isn't deliberately selling bootlegs, in which case, I'd hate to see his ebay reputation hurt. However, if it has been brought to his attention that the game is fake, he should definitely go out of his way to make sure the buyer is satisfied (that's what I would do). |
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